Author Topic: Licinius I votive from Ticinum with INVICT legend  (Read 2706 times)

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Offline Victor

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Licinius I votive from Ticinum with INVICT legend
« on: June 28, 2016, 09:52:02 AM »
This votive has an unusual reverse legend of INVICT. It seems strange that a coin, especially one issued by a Western mint, would call Licinius "unvanquished" only a few years after his defeat in the 1st civil war with Constantine.



Licinius I
A.D. 320
18x20mm   3.1gm
IMP LICI-NIVS AVG; radiate head.
DN LICINI INVICT AVG surrounding laurel wreath enclosing VOT XX with * in center.
in exergue TT   
RIC VII Ticinum 133

Offline lrbguy

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Re: Licinius I votive from Ticinum with INVICT legend
« Reply #1 on: June 28, 2016, 12:38:34 PM »
My understanding is that the VOTA coinage was not specifically votive coinage.  Is this one an exception?

Offline Victor

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Re: Licinius I votive from Ticinum with INVICT legend
« Reply #2 on: June 28, 2016, 12:53:03 PM »
any coin with VOT is technically votive as they are expressing vows or wishes. In this case, VOT XX as vows (prayers) for 20 years of rule. Not to be confused with votive offerings though.

Offline lrbguy

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Re: Licinius I votive from Ticinum with INVICT legend
« Reply #3 on: June 29, 2016, 07:08:08 PM »
I hope you will allow some informed discussion on this.

"any coin with VOT is technically votive as they are expressing vows or wishes"

That sounds very intuitive, ostensibly derived from etymology, but it is at odds with better informed usage.  I reference Patrick Bruun,  RIC VII, "General Introduction" part V. The Imperial Vota.  56-61.  At no time in his discussion of the action of the imperial vota or the coins bearing this word does he refer to them as "votive" or use that term in his discussion of them.  If we accept that his usage is well informed, how may we account for that?

Votive objects are dedicated for specific ceremonial use, and once the association is made they do not lose that function.  Illicit use of votive sacrifices has always been regarded as a desecration, then and now.  Sacrificial meat might appear in the marketplace after the festal meal is over, but there were strict rules about who could sell what and how.  Sacrificial meals shared by the donors could be extended to others, and that was congruent with the marketplace in a religiously observant community.  Early Christians were divided on what such meat represented, and tended to avoid it when encountered.   

The treatment of coins intended for market circulation was not like that, in part because of the official status of the imperial cult.  The function of the inscription on the "VOTA" coinage is rather in the manner of a public announcement or celebratory proclamation, but is not per se dedicatory.   From the time of minting, these coins were not restricted to ceremonial use, and so did not consistently perform a votive function.  At the same time, coins not bearing any direct reference to the action of the imperial vota were regularly employed in the exercise of vow fulfillment.  If an emperor vows to Jupiter that he will pay certain money to his military, whatever tokens he might offer in the ceremony might be called "votive," but the payment to the troops was not.  The coins which the emperor produced specifically to fulfill vows are called "donatives" by Bruun, who never applies the term "votive" to them.  To do so, I think, confuses the distinction between public and private exercise of ancient religious practice. 

I commend and recommend the way that Bruun handles reference to this coinage, naming it by its commemorative association with the various forms of imperial vota; i.e. the vota coinage.

Offline Victor

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Re: Licinius I votive from Ticinum with INVICT legend
« Reply #4 on: June 29, 2016, 07:28:53 PM »
Informed discussion is if fine, but are you implying the discussion was uninformed prior to your post? I like to think that I am informed and I would also point out that Bruun was certainly not infallible, though I am an avid student of his and have read RIC VII and many of his articles including two specific to the topic of Vota coinage-- “Constantinian Mint Policy and the Imperial Vota.” and “The System of the Vota Coinages. Co-ordination of Issues in the Constantinian Empire.” However, just because Bruun uses a word, it does not make it the best possible word and conversely just because he does not use a word, it does not mean it is incorrect. I immediately think of his use of the word "irregular" to describe coins that either did not fit his chronology or were simply unofficial issues.

You seem to want to make a distinction that votive must only be applied to donatives, which you are more than free to do; but I would hope that I am also free to use votive in reference to coins with a big VOT on them, as per one definition for votive from Merriam- Webster they fit nicely -- "consisting of or expressing a vow, wish, or desire" So my usage of votive is simply in terms of a vow, which Vota coinage was definitely a vow. Perhaps this is all just bogging down on semantics; but I would also say Merriam-Webster's usage is well informed.

As I have already stated, don't confuse my use of votive with votive offerings...though I had a feeling you were going to do so anyway.
Not to be confused with votive offerings though.

I use the term votive, as I have for over a decade on various internet forums, merely because these coins with VOT translate as vows, which per the perfectly good definition I have given, can be called votives.




EDIT: I knew that I had a similar conversation in the past and I found it on Ancients.info

Here are some responses from 2006 when someone else said that it was wrong to use votive.
Quote
VOT type coins are vota (not votive, as many people erroneously call them)

I am vic9128 in the first quote which is from Barry Murphy. The second quote is from Curtis Clay. Both agreed (though I am sure you could find other people that disagree), that according to the definition, votive is a perfectly acceptable word to use when talking about Vota coinage, in fact the words are synonymous.



Quote
Actually I believe vic9128 is correct. Votive is the English of Vota or Votum. At least that's what my trusty Webster dictionary tells me. I never took Latin either. As a finance major I really didn't see the point. I also didn't take, Greek, French or German, so don't ask me questions about them either.

I'm certain one of my 500+ books on Roman coins probably has the answer, but I'm too lazy to look beyond Webster.

I pass the buck to Curtis who lives, sleeps and breathes Roman coins

Barry


and the response of Curtis-


Quote
"Votive" is an adjective, meaning "given in fulfillment of a vow, relating to vows". So it is correct to say "votive coins" for coins recording vows, or "vota coins", which is the equivalent of "vows coins".
Of course I knew the answer, but I looked it up anyway, just to be sure!




Offline lrbguy

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Re: Licinius I votive from Ticinum with INVICT legend
« Reply #5 on: June 30, 2016, 09:57:27 AM »
Quote
Informed discussion is if fine, but are you implying the discussion was uninformed prior to your post?


Of course not.  No need to get defensive.  I was offering to share an opinion on a semantic question that is informed by years of scholarship from someone not known to you.  If this is too sensitive a topic for you to discuss without feeling personally attacked, I will drop it and bid adieu.  I would prefer that we stick with the subject and leave speculation about personal motives out of it.  If we can do that, then let us inquire about how these words (Vota, votive) actually function in their respective languages, citing authoritative opinion where we may.  (Bruun's usage is a good starting point.)

I happen to know that Curtis is well versed in the Classical languages, and from the quotation I can see that what he said is contextually anchored, though I have not actually seen his original context.  However, the citation of his remark is not to be applied to all contexts.  Barry admits forthrightly that he has not studied the Classical languages nor the languages of some of the best modern scholarship of our time.  His opinion of this semantic problem is less useful. 

In your reply you have not addressed any of the main points I brought up regarding the semantics of these words.  Are you willing to reconsider that?